Cartoon for June 19

Barack Obama, trying to court conservative whites with dim views of black males, attacks black men for being bad parents.


48 Responses to “”

  1. Lewis Ranja Says:

    Wow. This is just too rich, Ted.

    A short while ago, you published a cartoon in which you paralleled Obama and McCain with the fiddle-playing emperors of ancient Rome.

    Now, we have Obama doing quite the opposite of the end-of-the-road Romans. He’s actually calling black fathers to task. He is stating that they need to pull away from the warped culture that is permitting the majority of black children to be born out of wedlock, and which has allowed the terms “baby mama” and “baby daddy” to become commonplace. Whether or not this single-parent society is directly related to the horrifically disproportionate crime that is destroying the black community . . . well, I suppose your ilk would likely debate that subject. But anybody with half a frontal lobe would admit that there is something terribly wrong with urban black society in America.

    And what happens when Obama attempts to take a stand against this decay? You call him a prude.

    Again . . . wow.

    Keep playing that fiddle, Ted.

  2. Anonymous Says:

    Headline: Sex Offender Wins 57M Mega Millions Jackpot.
    Headline: Complete Moron Wins 2000 Presidential Election.
    2003 Headline: Mission Accomplished.
    January 2009 Headline: Mission Accomplished.
    So it goes.

  3. Ted Rall Says:

    Calm down, Jason. I’m calling Obama a panderer.

    But the broader point, which Obama supporters should probably embrace, is my asking why he feels the need to tackle the issue of irresponsible black fathers when whites are not?

    McCain himself, after all, divorced his first wife after having children with her.

  4. IrishUp Says:

    Yeah – I didn’t hear O-man railing against a system that has about a third of black men involved in the penal system and UNABLE to parent effectively. Or pay structures that hinder minorities’ ability to parent effectively. Or a non-existitant support system for child care that supports effective parenting …..

  5. Anders Says:

    But Ted, McCain is WHITE. Obama is talking about BLACKS. Don’t you see? It’s much easier when you don’t stop and think about these things.

    Yes, the weather here lovel, thank you,.

  6. Anonymous Says:

    I’m with Jason on this one. 70% of black children are now born to single mothers. 40 years ago, this was just 25%. It’s a growing problem with serious consequences for the children. Pandering or not, it’s still a valid concern that Obama is addressing.

  7. Thomas Daulton Says:

    On a completely different tangent, wow, that’s the scariest caricature of Hillary I’ve ever seen, yet still easily recognizeable as her. (I wouldn’t have pushed the nose that far, but still.) I can only remember seeing Hillary in your strip about twice before, and her artistic treatment wasn’t quite so, ummm, visceral. But wow, this one just chills my bones simply looking at it. Too bad you didn’t bust it out earlier. Here’s hoping you won’t need to use it in 2012.

  8. Anonymous Says:

    All political statements serve an ulterior purpose. Dorme bene

  9. SDS Says:


    It’s a valid criticism, but I’d argue that Obama is doing a service more than pandering. White people (especially rich ones) don’t suffer in the short term from bad parenting. Sure, they get into cycles of bad relationships, divorces, future child abandonment, drug addictions, and what not. But the reality is if you’re rich (and especially if you’re white) in the US, you’ll never feel the consequences of your actions for very long. Look at the drug laws for reference.

    For black people, this might just be a matter of survival. Would I prefer it if trust-fund babies might go to jail if they were caught with coke? Yes. Will that ever happen here? Almost certainly not.

  10. Lewis Ranja Says:

    Irishup – don’t be absurd. If you honestly believe that the black fathers who are in the penal system would be exemplary fathers if they weren’t in there . . . well, then you really need to go visit a jail. As a former public defender, I can assure you that, before committing the crimes that landed them in prison, those men weren’t playing catch with their sons. And as for the child-care “problem”, people have been doing a perfectly fine job raising their children for centuries without assistance from the government. It is the ultimate form of pandering to excuse poor parenting because of the absence of such a system.

    And Ted, whites don’t feel the need to speak about poor parenting in the white community because it is not a growing problem within that community. There are poor parents in that demographic, just as there have always been. But it hasn’t increased anywhere near the level that it has in the black community – and it hasn’t been accompanied by the increase of violent crime that it has in the black community.

    Sorry, man, but you’re 100% wrong on this one.

    Anders, on the other hand, is 100% right. It’s easier just not to think about these things. Just call Obama a prude and a panderer, and feel good about yourself. Just be glad that you don’t have to live in one of the horribly broken communities that have resulted from the “baby mama” culture.

  11. Anonymous Says:

    In order to have responsible fathers you got have fathers
    with living wage steady jobs. With
    the torrent of illegal immigrants and outsourcing of jobs, it is difficult for many black youth to get a start in a living wage job or as matter of fact any job at all where illegal immigrants are alway prefered.
    That is what Obama should address
    too instead of sucking up to prejudice and ignorance.

  12. Maura Says:

    Ted said: But the broader point, which Obama supporters should probably embrace, is my asking why he feels the need to tackle the issue of irresponsible black fathers when whites are not?

    Ted, forgive me if I’m being obtuse, but can you clarify this? Do you mean that whites should tackle the issue of irresponsible black fathers, or that they should tackle the issue of irresponsible white fathers? Or all irresponsible fathers? If it’s either of the last two, fine. If it’s the first, I don’t think that would be such a good idea.

    At any rate, I hope that, along with talking about personal responsibility, he gave us an idea of how he plans to move “personal responsibility” along; and how he’s going to improve the lives of any and all kids with deadbeat fathers.

    As for the pandering…well, hell. It was bound to happen eventually.

  13. Lewis Ranja Says:

    Why do people like this Anonymous fellow feel the need to make excuses for men who impregnate women and then desert them? So now it’s because they can’t get “living wage” jobs??? All throughout history, there have been groups of lower-income Americans who have had difficulty earning money, but who have still kept a strong family unit. The Irish are a prime example. Fifty years ago, many of them were in the same situation that blacks are in today. But they did not use their bad economic situation as an excuse to abandon their children. And, those who did, were vilified and rightfully treated like the scum that they were.

    The only difference now is that white liberals are working very hard to find ridiculous excuses for why a horrible percentage of black men are leaving their children fatherless.

  14. Aggie Dude Says:

    The broader problem for me is in framing the discussion as an individual issue of responsibility, not a structural issue of collapsing social institutions of support for individuals, for a variety of reasons that affect different groups differently.

    But why must black leaders chastise the black community to appease whites? It further plays into the transfer of responsibility for the problems of the black community being about blacks.

    A republican congressman a few years ago (I think from Nebraska) referred to Iraq and said “It’s not an US problem, it’s a THEM problem”

    It’s about allowing Americans to use race as a way to say “THEY are not MY problem”

    This is a class, far more than a race issue, as single mothers get universally lambasted by the moral crusaders too.

  15. Anonymous Says:

    Stupid is as stupid does. You gotta want to be better person to become one. We can argue all day about “Whitey keepin’ the Black man down”, which is absolutley true, but Whitey also wants poor whitey to fail as well. So he can use drugs,rob a bank, get arrested and provide another statistic to justify everything from eaves dropping to building more prisons to the war on terror. I try to be a good person everyday. I’m abused everyday by my co-workers when I point out that there is 2 sides to every story. To ignorant Fascists, they’d deal with me the same way they’d treat people of a differnt color. They go for Intellectuals too. This concept is nicely examined in Todd Rundgren’s song “Stood Up” , for those not easily offended by political music. Rock And Roll was revolution. Hip Hop is a Burger King commercial. Rock On, Mofo!! Dorme Bene…

  16. Angelo Says:

    Jason, you are a product of your environment. If those set of circumstances drove you to leave your baby mama, you would.

    That said, when it comes to getting kicked around in this country, the Irish have nothing on American blacks. I love how people like to think that slavery was ancient history. It was 140 years ago. Families were destroyed, the whole culture was affected. Then came emancipation. Things only got worse for newly freed blacks. Jim Crow has not even been dead for one lifetime, and it’s not like institutionalized racism is dead, by a long shot.

    But you probably know all of that too. Weirdo.

  17. Lewis Ranja Says:

    Aggie – Why is it that everything you write sounds like it’s being recited word-for-word out of some Sociology 101 textbook from Berkley? What exactly are these “collapsing social institutions” that used to exist that are no longer here? And how would their collapse condone fathers abandoning their children?

    There is no transference here. It IS their problem. There is a horrible, horrible problem in the black community that white politicians don’t have the balls to confront. And so I’m highly grateful that Obama is willing to engage in the discussion.

    In the 19th Century, blacks were oppressed by slavery. In the 20th Century, they were held back by segregation and Jim Crow laws. In the 21st Century, one of the greatest hindrances of black society is and will continue to be white liberals who excuse the worst elements of black culture. Black people are not children. They are not animals. Black men who abandon their sons and daughters should be held fully responsible for what they have chosen to do. Your refusal to do it makes you an enabler for the crippling of black society.

  18. Angelo Says:

    Jason, I was unable to find any data to back up your claim that black men have an abnormal rate of child abandonment.

    The truth is many men are nothing more than sperm donors, who never had any intention of having children. When pregnancy occurs, Some pretend they are ready, and stick around for a while (like my brother did), some get kicked out by the girl, some leave, and some die. If I got my girlfriend pregnant, I would try to make her give the baby up, because I would make a shitty dad. I prefer to just not have sex, but that does not always work out, as I’m sure everyone understands. Can you blame me for not believing I can be a dad?

    It is telling that you chose to characterize all of the the above as a problem with black men.

    I am interested to know how the government might intervene in any of these situations, though.

  19. Anders Says:

    anonymous:”70% of black children are now born to single mothers. 40 years ago, this was just 25%.”

    And if we look at whites within the same income bracket, don’t we see a similar trend? It’s Class, not Race and Culture. There’s a lot more poor people in prison than rich people, it just so happens that coloureds are more likely to be poorer than whites (statistically).

  20. Anonymous Says:

    As I’m sure you know, Democrats have been the home of racism against blacks in this country for years. It’s difficult for them to refute it, so instead they project it on to Republicans.

    “I’ll have them niggers voting Democratic for two hundred years”

    -Lyndon Johnson DEMOCRAT

  21. Anonymous Says:

    With the rise of unemployment and
    under-employment among white men
    we are seeing the same problems that plagued the black communities
    from alcholism, drug addiction, domestic violence and absent fathers started to plague the white
    people. The only difference is that the drug of choice of the whites is meth-amphetamine instead
    of crack and heroin.
    Again, you want fathers to be around for their families then there should be living wage jobs

  22. Anonymous Says:

    To those people who say our Irish or Italian or Jewish or what have
    you ancestors came and started dirt
    poor and were discriminated against and still made it and why the black people did not make it I would say that is extremely unfair comparison.
    With the attitudes and mentalities
    of the people at those times, there
    was a big difference of the expectations and stereotyping of
    black and whites. Do you think a
    blue eyed red haired Irish was
    looked upon exactly the same as
    a black man??!!
    Besides, the “ethnics”, the minute
    they got a foot hold they started
    chasing out intimidated and helpless black people from the
    trade good jobs they have!!.

  23. Ted Rall Says:

    Watch the name calling, please. Spirited discussion is encouraged.

  24. Aggie Dude Says:

    “Aggie – Why is it that everything you write sounds like it’s being recited word-for-word out of some Sociology 101 textbook from Berkley? What exactly are these “collapsing social institutions” that used to exist that are no longer here? And how would their collapse condone fathers abandoning their children?”

    Jason, the reason it might sound like it’s out of a Sociology 101 textbook is because recognizing structural impact on individual behavior is BASIC INTRODUCTORY TO SOCIOLOGY. It is something that 18 year olds ‘get’ in like 5 minutes that our current political leadership and a substantial portion of Americans doesn’t.

    Given your responses to me and others in this discussion, I don’t think it is possible to answer this question in a way that satisfies you. If you want to know the answer, you need to go find it yourself. Nobody can bestow intellectual enlightenment upon you, you have to be willing to accept it yourself.

  25. Anonymous Says:

    IRISH NEED NOT APPLY Actual sign from the 1800’s. Google it.

  26. Andy Says:

    We can’t single out anyone. It’s not just the men… the women, the generations before… and across all racial divides.

    I’m unsure about calling out adults at this point. I would rather provide safe childcare, like France. Instead of taxing parents who probably will get it all back in their return, waive it and pay for childcare.

    But I would try to instill strong values in children so that in the future unwanted pregnancies and abandonment drop. It’s a long-term process.

  27. Anonymous Says:

    May I offer a compromise position?

    The negative aspects of urban black culture emerged out of hopelessness. What’s the point of trying to raise a nuclear family if you don’t have steady employment? What’s the point of participating in the aboveground economy if the best you can do is minimum wage? Why study when no one will take you seriously for your mind? Violence and pleasure seeking are natural human behaviors in a hopeless environment.

    Unfortunately, this culture has become a self fulfilling prophecy. Uneducated individuals with rap sheets do not have much opportunity. Even in a truly colorblind society, a demographic with a large percentage of these individuals will do poorly. We still have a long way to go to achieve racial equality, but modern black culture is a big obstacle to that goal.

    It doesn’t help matters that the media sees big profits in glamorizing antisocial behavior. As for government intervention, we have to walk a fine line between failing to help good people who’ve made mistakes and subsidizing irresponsibility.

  28. Anonymous Says:

    anonymous said: “we have to walk a
    fine line between failing to help good people who’ve made mistakes and subsidizing irresponsibility”.

    Very insightful and elightening.
    Thank you anonymous.

  29. Lewis Ranja Says:

    The Irish have nothing on the blacks?

    Yes, you’re right. They weren’t treated like slaves in the colonized nation of Ireland. Oh wait . . . yes, they were. Oh, well, hey, at least, upon arriving in America, they weren’t discriminated against and kept from getting work by people who believed that they were racially inferior. Oh, hold on, actually yes, they were. That must be why all the Irishmen abandoned their pregnant wives. Wait, no, actually that didn’t happen. “Oh yeah, Sheena Maguire, she’s my baby mama!”

    Yes, the blacks got the second rawest deal of everybody in America (American Indians getting the rawest). But just about every non-English person who came here got screwed in some way. They didn’t use it as an excuse to further destroy themselves. But, in those days, they weren’t surrounded by enablers who told them they weren’t responsible for their failures. Instead they were held accountable for leaving their children.

    And, Aggie, starting today, I shall seek the intellectual enlightenment that you possess. It will be hard, but I will find it. No matter what mountains I must climb or lands I must visit. No matter what risks I must take, I shall find this enlightenment. I’m sure this was how you found your enlightenment. Well, no, actually you probably just read something in a book when you were a college sophomore. Let me ask you . . . have you ever even MET a poor black person?

  30. jason Says:

    my main points:

    1) Black fathers abandon their children more often than any other group (you find the source).

    2) They are like this because of…drum roll….wait for it…

    (again, I make the claims, you find the source)

  31. Aggie Dude Says:

    Yes, very insightful. The general theme amongst those comments here with reasonable critique is that policy, by definition, is about structuring the playing field to encourage good behaviors. It therefore does not deal in individuals. The problem is in characterizing everything in individual terms. Reagan talked about the mythical “welfare queen” for example.

    As Michael Moore put it, “..we live in a world of ‘me,’ not ‘we'” Until we get that point, we’re stuck; Iraq was about Hussein & Bush….as though there weren’t many others to consider.

  32. Angelo Says:

    Jason, consider your pants off.

    the “70% of black children” thing is all over the internet, but no one provides any direct citation. I looked around and found this from the National Center for Health Statistics..

    Numbers of husbandless women choosing to have children are not “growing” as you said. They have been falling since the 90s. Also, the study makes no inference with regards to “black fathers”, because, as O’Bama said:
    fucking fatherhood. I also wonder how many of the sperm donors are actually black. (O’Bama’s father was a Nigerian diplomat, making him part of a different culture.)

    People like Jason get their information from really bad sources. According to a condescending article by the conservative Heritage Foundation, average black wages rose from 8000 to 30,000 (thats 3.75 times) from 1940 to the present, yet there are more fatherless black children today, “proving” that wages are not to blame. They do not mention that prices have exploded to 15 times what they were in 1940 (Consumer Price Index from 1913 to present). Conservative media outlets then disseminate the shit to their un-critical masses, which then end up here, all worked up in a lather, and typing “you and your ilk…”.

    Did you see those blue things, Jason. They are called sources. They are full of things called facts. You read them, and then you apply reasoning and critical analy… forget it.

    sorry for calling you a weirdo. Clearly I was woefully inaccurate.

  33. Anders Says:

    Angelo, watcha doin’ all that fancy sourcin’ for? Sources are for liberals, hippies and pinkos, gawd demmit!

    Not being all that good at finding statistical material myself, is there a similar site/source that corrects for _income_ instead of or along with race?

    That classification by race is something we don’t get much of over here in Norwayland. The only comparable factors are “State of origin” (which makes Kurds into “Iraqis” and Albanians into Serbs and Yugoslavs) or “native language”.

  34. livin' the dream Says:

    Maybe Obama can do something about those sideways over-sized baseball caps, and the pants worn so the belt is below the entire ass. Now there’s a candidate I would vote for!

  35. Lewis Ranja Says:

    Angelo – I looked at those fancy blue things and must thank you for doing my job for me. So single black mothers haven’t increased since 1990. How wonderful! Instead, they have stayed static at 68-70%. What a magnificent situation!!!!!!!

    As far as your second statistic, that’s completely irrelevant. Increased prices do not excuse abandoning your children, and only a sick childish mind would believe that they do.

    Me – pants still on tightly.

    You – Fingers in ears, singing “Nothing’s wrong, nothing’s wrong.” Keep it up, man.

    P.S. – If you think I’m a weirdo for believing that single black mothers are a massive problem in the cities of America, then you REALLY need to get out more. Expand that circle of friends, buddy.

  36. Aggie Dude Says:

    Quoth Jason

    “. . .have you ever even MET a poor black person?”

    You’ve made this type of accusation toward several people here. It’s frivolous and juvenile. It reminds me of all those good Southern folks I grew up with who would say “I’m not racist, I have that one black friend!”

    Furthermore, it’s been years since I’ve been a sophomore in college, and in that time I have participated in the level of research (both broadly statistical and qualitatively personal) that leads to the writing of those textbooks you talk about in such a dismissive way.

    This begs the question. . . what do you have against textbooks and their statistical data and summaries of research? Is it just textbooks, or do you have a problem with ALL books?

    Lastly, “As far as your second statistic, that’s completely irrelevant. Increased prices do not excuse abandoning your children, and only a sick childish mind would believe that they do.”

    The point, which you apparently missed, is that it has been well established for decades by researchers who focus their lives on the study of the family, that broken families are the result, not the cause, of poor economic conditions.

    Therefore this statistic hits the nail on the head, that black families have in fact fallen behind since 1940, and this issue is exacerbated when taking into consideration that the black community had actually achieved progress throughout the 1960s.

    Maybe you need to first take a course in statistical analysis before taking a course that uses statistics to make an argument?

  37. Anonymous Says:

    In my humble opinion regarding the current situation of the black people, there are two sides:
    1) Discrimination, prejudice, bigotry and general stereotyping is alive and well. Yes, it is not legally sanctioned and there is some progress but it is STILL there.

    2)Irresponsible behaviour is more
    common in the black communities.
    Yes, generations of slavery with its cruel destruction of black family units in the slave market,
    putdowns, belittling, discrimination and bigotry led to
    rising frustration and dispair in
    the black community that led to
    this pattern of behavior.

    However, with that said, the only
    thing that will help the black
    people is the black themselves.
    In the current times of tax cuts
    with wealth is perculating upward
    and rising unemployment and hardship among the whites and consequently rising hostilities
    toward minorities, very little
    help will be coming.
    Life is not fair and it never was
    but that is the way it is.

  38. Angelo Says:

    Jason you have been an irresponsible father to your original point. You gave birth to it, but you refuse to provide facts and reasoning that will help it grow into a healthy, happy argument.

    The CDC numbers are like a Rorschach inkblot test. I see that there are more single parents, and I say, “we need higher wages so that single parents can care for their children”.
    You see the numbers, and a lazy black guy pops into your head.
    This says something about you.

    Same thing with the CPI. You thought I was using it as an excuse for black men. But I don’t even think black men need an excuse. Once again, your obsession with black men has colored your perception.
    You see what you want to see. But getting back to the discussion…

    My points (refute these)
    1) Single mothers need more money and education.
    PROOF: see CPI link above, and education stats)
    2) the CDC numbers are about unmarried mothers who choose to have babies.
    2b) We do not even know the sperm donors’ race
    PROOF: see NCHS link above.
    2c) We do not know how many of the kids have men in their life (uncle, brother, grandfather, live-in boy friend etc.).
    PROOF: see NCHS link above.
    3)O’bama’s handlers’ intentions here are suspect.
    PROOF: they made the same leap you made, and it is not the first time.

    Your points:
    1) Black fathers are abandoning their children.
    PROOF: _______________
    2) Liberals are making it worse.
    PROOF: _______________
    3) O’Bama is right to pander to you
    PROOF: _______________

    This is about the time where edward and other conservatives would leave the conversation. I hope you are not the same, Jason. Don’t abandon your child.

  39. jesus h. christ Says:

    Why can’t poor people just stop fucking already?

  40. Aggie Dude Says:

    “Jason you have been an irresponsible father to your original point. You gave birth to it, but you refuse to provide facts and reasoning that will help it grow into a healthy, happy argument.”

    Wow…Angelo, that’s poetic and ironic….I solute you!!

    But in all fairness to Jason; we, who talk of the structural forces that encourage broken families in impoverished (both economically and politically) and disenfranchised groups, should not treat Jason any differently.

    Maybe Jason, like other deadbeat dads, simply lacks the resources to be a positive influence in his child’s life.

    It is incumbent upon us, the socially responsible community, to acknowledge Jason’s disadvantage and publicly assist his child, providing for daycare, health care, and a free public education through college.

    I think the child will find their place well amongst the fine folks at the Harvard Business School, or maybe the new Milton Friedman school of Economics at University of Chicago.

    But what if the child, with all the benefits of public assistance, fails to become a responsible contributor to the civil society and public discourse?

    I am afraid, then, that we must conclude that this is a bad child, who himself, and not his father Jason, bear the responsibility for their failure.

  41. Lewis Ranja Says:

    Aggie – My question to you was not juvenile, as it pointed out a problem have with many of your ilk who argue these subjects. I am not what your side would ravenously call an “anti-intellectual”. Instead, I simply have a different definition of what “intellectual” is. I believe that textbooks and courses can only get a person so far in life. There’s a great part of the book “Atlas Shrugged” – a book I love but I’m sure most of the people here despise – in which the character Francisco D’Anconio and his friends are tearing apart a car in a junkyard. A friend of the family’s sees him and chastises him, telling him that this is beneath him and that he should be “studying the ways of the world” (or something to that effect). “But that,” Francisco responds, “Is exactly what I’m doing.”

    Putting all your faith into classroom learning cripples your opinion – and everything that I’ve read from you on every single topic here puts you squarely in that place. I’ve worked for Public Defender’s offices in Georgia and California. I’ve spoken with mothers and children who have been devastated by this trend. I’ve spoken with fathers who don’t their sons’ names. If you want to equate this with “I have a black friend”, then I think you’ve lost the privilege of calling anyone else’s arguments childish.

    I don’t have any black friends.

  42. Lewis Ranja Says:

    But Angelo, my argument is already a healthy adult. A parent must know when to let go.

    Yes, we each see the same facts (thanks for posting those, again), but we have different beliefs on what causes it. You have a paternalistic view, that black people are children and must be given more money, or else they will have no choice but to abandon their children. One quick note on that point, though – the way that you raise wages for yourself is by graduating from high school and then maybe even going on to college, not by asking for the state to artificially raise the wages of being a deep-fry cook at McDonald’s.

    So your Point (1) is no more a proof to your argument than my Point (2). It’s just a theory. Everybody needs more money and education. But you get it for yourself (remember, I’m a lover of “Atlas Shrugged”, so you’re kind of hitting a brick wall here).

    2b and 2c – Okay. So maybe they got knocked up by white guys, and maybe there’s a live-in boyfriend. That’s desperate, but possible. I doubt that I’d be able to find any statistics to refute that, but I doubt you’d find any to support it, either. Find me something to back that up and then I’ll admit I’m wrong. But since you’re refuting what is commonly known to be true, the burden falls on you to do the legwork.

    And as I said when I started this argument, if you believe Obama is pandering to white people by bringing black men to task, then that does not speak highly of you.

  43. Anonymous Says:

    So Bill Cosby is a “conservative white”, now?

  44. Anonymous Says:

    To Jason,

    You said your ancestors were “treated like slaves” in Ireland. Were there “slaves” markets in Ireland at that time??!! Were “slaves” sold off to distant buyers and seperated from their spouses and children?? Were
    the siblings sold off to different
    buyers in different locations and
    seperated from their parents and
    Definitely your ancestors were not
    slaves but most likely they were land serfs attached to a certain piece of land.
    You also said that your ancestors
    upon arrival to America they were
    discriminated against and to that
    I agree with you. But again, with
    the attitudes and mentalities of
    the nineteenth and early twentieth
    centuries, do you think that a blond blue eyed Irish were looked
    upon exactly equal to the black
    man from the “Negro Race”?? I say,
    definitely not.

  45. Aggie Dude Says:


    I never said that I limit the experiences of myself, nor my students, simply to classroom learning. To advocate for textbooks, which are thoroughly vetted and routinely updated – at least at the collegiate level – does not in any way imply this.

    ‘Atlas Shrugged’ is a NOVEL…a NOVEL, it is NOT social science. It is NOT a scholarly source. Simply saying you have a ‘broader view’ of what constitutes ‘intellectual’ is no excuse to use pseudo-philosophical FICTION as a basis for your world view. At best it’s philosophy. To quote it in a discussion as though it were on par with actual social research is silly.

    I have met many poor black folks, and many poor folks of other ethnic persuasions. The social research I refer to involves actually going and talking to the subjects of that research as a way of triangulating data.

    What purpose does asking me if I’ve ever met a black person serve? If I had or if I had not, what relevance does that have to my defense of my positions being based on a foundation of existing research and scholarly literature?

    How can one dismiss scholarship in favor of Ayn Rand as though this is reasonable?!?

    Tell me, Jason, are you Scientologist? I’m curious, because that’s the sort of logic that befits people who join a religion whose founder was quoted as saying “I’d like to start my own religion.”

  46. Anonymous Says:

    Oh Christ, Ayn Rand!!! Time to burn my Rush albums.

  47. Angelo Says:

    As someone who reads Ayn Rand, you should have no problem understanding that everything that happened in the US since she wrote Atlas Shrugged, has been the OPPOSITE.

    In that book, the elites were socialists who would not let the markets function, so the infrastructure was falling apart. In real life however, Ayn Rand got her way:
    1)The free market has been given free reign, especially since the 1970s.
    2)Socialists do not run our government, conservatives do.
    3)Her boyfriend, Alan Greenspan, was head of the federal reserve for 20 years.
    4) The government stopped mandating that wages go up with prices.
    5) no real country offers less entitlements than the US.
    6) the US has the lowest taxes of any real country.

    Still, the infrastructure has fallen apart, receiving a D from ASCE for the past 8 years straight. And all of this, not because of too little capitalism, but because of too much. In countries like Belgium, half of ones income goes to taxes, regulations are draconian, and central planning is done by what we might call “socialist elites”. But year after year Belgians vote for it to be this way, because their infrastructure is perfect, their social services are healthy, and crime is WAY lower than the US.

    Ayn rand was right about the future being dark, but she probably did not think her students would bring it about, using her teachings.

  48. Angelo Says:

    /……………….. R.I.P…………………..\
    |…….Black Abandonment Myth……….|
    |………….. June 20, 2008………………|
    |………….-June 27, 2008……………….|
    |……………. Child Of…………………..|
    |………. Cause of Death:………………|
    |………… Abandonment……………….|

    You can still save your liberal causation baby if you “man up”. But you are probably busy conceiving other points you have no intention of supporting.
    “virtue of selfishness” I guess.

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